A few Romanians think it's magnificent of Britain to decide to leave the EU, but most are displeased, many very angry, because the only reason they can imagine why we are leaving is because of dislike of Eastern European immigrants. This hurts them all the more since the UK has so many non-white citizens.
They think we are even more arrogant then they already believed (which was very). They mostly don't believe that we simply want to make our own laws.
Among the politicians there is unhappiness about losing an ally at Brussels and incomprehension that we are leaving just because of a referendum. Referendum results in Romania are often simply ignored. Or even rigged. The result of the EU referendum here was widely believed to be rigged (so that the minimum turnout threshold was reached).
And Romanian politicians do not understand why David Cameron called a referendum just because he won an election on a promise to do so.
It all makes you proud to be British.
They also mostly think we won't really leave. And the lesson I draw is that no-one ever understands another country's politics.
Paul, what is this stuff about making your own laws, as if real people actually do that and not the political and elites - most of whom are bankrolled by big business and various narrow interest groups. If anything, it's harder for dubious interest groups to get their agenda in Brussels as power is concentrated in the EU Commission and you can't really influence bureaucrats so easily with campaign donations or the media - they are not elected. This must be making Murdoch mad - those people don't care about what his media channels report, whether he likes them or not, about his money and he has very little leverage on them - while in the UK he can get anything he wants from the likes of Blair, Cameron, etc. This is why Murdoch (and other big influencers like him) wanted Brexit, not for some ideal of sovereignty. It's sovereignty he can use.
ReplyDeleteSilviu
The answer is in the plural and bounces. To quote Sir Edwin Lutyens.
DeleteSo you think democracy is a chimera and it is better to be ruled by foreign bureaucrats than by big business. This is true for Romania but not for England.
See the classical "Rise and Decline of Nations" by Mancur Olson. Even if it's written more than half a century ago, much of it still holds. Of course, there is also the pluralistic view that policy is the result of the battles between many interest groups, and not just a few and the result is something that everyone can live with. It can also be argued that the EU is also a place where a lot of lobbying takes place and given that it's difficult and expensive it's only the big multinationals that are successful there. But I was only pointing out that some of these people like Murdoch who want to bring the decisions back from Brussels do so because they want decisions to be made where they can easily influence them via The Sun, Sky, etc. He probably does not even have to do anything anymore in terms of using his media empire - due to his past actions the British politicians have such a fear of him that they act like poodles around him - if they are kings, they hope to stay that way, if they are not, they hope he will make them kings.Indeed, Brexit would make this guy more powerful than the PM or any elected official, and where's the democracy in that? If you want democracy, no businessman should be this powerful, you need stronger protection against people like that, media empires like his should not be allowed as they damage democracy.
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Delete"This stuff" is one of the main ingredients that made Britain a successful country over the last 350 years and most Continental countries unsuccessful over the same period, Silviu.
Yes, it's true, in theory, but have you looked at how laws are being enacted at various levels and how much democracy is in that process? By that logic you should only have decision making at a very local level, and in any case the UK should not be a part of the UN, the WTO, the Council of Europe, the ICC, NATO, etc - as all these institutions mean a transfer of sovereignty to various multinational institutions. Despite having a parliament, the EU is not a place for real democracy, it's a place for arbitrage of national and multinational state and business interests. There are other ways to have this mediation - war, international courts, but after WWII they tried a more political alternative and it seems to have kept the peace more or less on the Continent.
Delete<< They mostly don't believe that we simply want to make our own laws. >>
ReplyDeleteThe whole idea anyone _could_ make their own laws is probably alien to them.
Mark Griffith
"They mostly don't believe that we simply want to make our own laws."
ReplyDeletetook you like 45 years to remember you want to make your own laws :)
Very good point! It didn't seem that we'd ever have the chance to leave is the reason. With every day that passes I see more reasons why the EU is an appalling institution and berate myself for not having seen this more clearly since the Treaty of Maastricht.
DeleteAnd it's not just the EU but the ideology it represents - see this article which is about another body, the Council of Europe with the same ideology.
Deletehttp://pvewood.blogspot.ro/2016/10/council-of-europe-complains-that.html
First of all no one ever understands other nation's mentality! That's what I'm trying to tell you for already almost 3 years every time you express your opinions about my country and I can see how you have nooo clue what you talking about, not cuz you lack information or intelligence.. But for the simple fact cuz you're lacking the understanding of our mentality.
ReplyDeleteNow your country isn't understood by others (except my ppl, who love their own freedom from other states and do not like foreign interfering in our internal businesses, no one gets you in Eastern Europe - they feel betrayed by you..) so I can say: welcome to the club, dear Paul!
Ksenia
The Romanians who think that Brexit was driven by hate of Eastern Europeans, mainly Romanians and Poles, were not THAT deluded.
ReplyDeleteI came across on LinkedIn on satirical essay written by a Romanian professional and called: Brexit? It is all Romanians' fault. It was written a month BEFORE the Brexit vote so in no way is a post-mortem analysis. All the media quotes are true; they were part of the Brexit campaign: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/brexit-romanians-faults-lucia-stefan-mphil-
Eastern Europeans, in particular Romanians, were turned into scapegoats for the immigration mess. At referendum people were told that Brexit would allow to get rid of them. Yet most migrants to the UK are from non-EU countries, to a tune of one million every four years. The UK could but refused to control it, preferring to blame the Eastern Europeans. Brexit won’t solve any migration problem.
I am happy for the Brexit for one single reason: The Britons won’t be able to blame Romanians for all their problems once they get out of the EU.
Happy hard Brexit asap!
I was wrong about one million of non-EU every four years. In one year (last year) 633000 non-EU persons were given entry visas into the UK. That makes around 2.5 million every four years. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa
DeleteAbout 330,000 immigrants in last two years - roughly half from outside EU. 3 million EU foreigners live in UK and can stay there and become British.
DeleteNothing published before the vote is evidence of why people voted. Immigration was important - rightly - but sovereignty more so. So at least people said and so they told me.
DeleteApart from the two Muslims, only one person, a woman in Rochester from whom I bought an ice cream, mentioned immigrants.
ReplyDeleteThe decent people who work in shops and pubs outside London were usually Leave. People whose judgment I instinctively trusted. A man at the airport gave me a cappuccino on the house after I said I was Leave. A nice 25 year old barmaid in Rochester put it best:
Whatever happens, at least we'll make our own laws now.
Her blonde colleague agreed. So did I. https://pvewood.blogspot.ro/2016/08/talking-to-people-in-england-about.html
Your empirical experience does not reflect reality. A recent poll sgows that migration was the main reason for Brexit (48%): https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-immigration-negotiations-relocating-banks-trade-migrants-economy-latest-7381081
DeleteWanting to make own laws comes second, with 25%
About half of leavers voted Brexit out of hate for Eastern Europeans, particularly of Romanians. It explains all post-brexit incidents like Polish scum get out, Romanians out, etc
The poll above is the sad reality but most Britons are still in denial. It is easier to blame Romanians again for thinking that Brexit was driven by the desire to expel them from the UK. Scapegoating Romanians is still socially ecceptable in the UK.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3805008/The-great-Brexit-hate-crime-myth-claims-epidemic-race-crimes-referendum-simply-false.html
DeleteDaily Mail article???? That newspaper who reported the invasion of thousands of Romanians on January 1, 2014, only to discover that only 2 newcomers turned up? Hilarious! What next? Daily Express, The Sun or Breitbart news as a source of trustworthy information? You are a huge disappointment PVE Wood!
Deletehttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3335689/How-50-000-migrants-came-UK-Romania-Bulgaria-just-one-year-Figure-19-000-year-given-right-work-freely-Britain.html
DeleteBrexit: Theresa May urged to act fast as new poll finds huge support for protecting EU migrants’ rights
DeleteExclusive polling for The Independent reveals that 66 per cent want the Prime Minister to ensure Europeans living and working in the UK can stay on after Brexit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-immigrants-migrants-rights-theresa-may-new-poll-demands-protections-from-prime-minister-a7386416.html
Please be so kind as to leave a name, if only a false one.
DeleteAs you see the Mail is more reliable on immigration news than the Guardian which is strongly biassed. As, alas, is the BBC.
DeleteI suspect that another - very pragmatic - reason why Romanians are annoyed by the Brexit vote is that one of their primary go-to countries for work is now off their list.
ReplyDeleteStop deluding yourself. Britain was never a primary country to go; Italy, Spain and France and Germany were instead.
DeleteContrary of what you think, the UK was never top priority for the Romanians migration, yesterday or today.
Romanians were annoyed by the vicious hate campaign orchestatrated against them by the British media.
There was no hate campaign.
DeleteYou have no idea how vicious was the hate campaign against Romanians in the UK since 2013 because you did NOT live there. It still goes on and on. I know exactly what happened in Britain as I live there, not in Bucharest.
DeleteAnonymous is right. You have an extremely blinkered or partial view Paul.
ReplyDeleteThanks. What view did I express? The only view i expressed in this article was that the fact that politicians keep promises and the will of the people is respected make one proud to be British.
DeleteYou should read this, by an American. "The London of today was sliding into becoming a bigger, brighter, and more lively Brussels—so international that it had no discernible identity; so cosmopolitan in its self-understanding that it had no pride in its own history and unique character; so unwilling to accept the burdens of self-government that it preferred the administration of well-meaning but unaccountable bureaucrats to the crash and bang of democracy in action. The poison of Brussels-style Euro-politics had clearly infected those Londoners whose first impulse was to do what European politicians have done for decades: compel the lower classes who have voted the wrong way to vote again until they do the thing their betters thought they ought to have done in the first place."
Deletehttp://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/07/05/a-tale-of-two-cities/
And please print off and read this by a brilliant man who taught me.
Deletehttp://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/07/english-revolt
A friend of mine said after the result 'The old country still has balls.' The referendum result was one of the most important moments in English history. Comparable with the Delhi Durbar of 1911. I won't say comparable with our victory in 1945 because that proved to be Pyrrhic. How far Great Britain has come since the Callaghan era - though admittedly very much has been lost while self confidence has been gained.
DeleteLiving in Romania while hating and despising Romanians so much, what an awful life to live
ReplyDeleteDan Lungu
Why do you think I hate and despise Romanians? Whatever gave you that absurd idea? I love them and and admire them very much. I wrote this to say so. https://pvewood.blogspot.ro/2013/04/25-reasons-why-i-love-living-in-romania.html
ReplyDelete