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The discussion about whether Nazis were right-wing or socialists is infantile and boring.
A lake is a body of water that people call a lake and a right-winger is someone who is considered and considers himself a right-winger.
Of course the Nazis were right-wing. Although right-wing originally meant averse to change, which the Nazis certainly were not. Very certainly they were not any sort of conservatives, as surely as they were not liberals.
However, and more importantly, the Nazis were progressives not reactionaries. They were the first people to want a European Economic Community, they were environmentalists, anti-smoking fanatics, very New Age, etc, etc. Eugenics was considered modern and progressive before the war, as abortion is now.
Anti-Semitism is reactionary, you say, and it certainly often can be, but the Nazi reasons for persecuting Jews were to do with newfangled bogus pseudo-science and not the old reasons for disliking Jews. Anti-Semitism in Central and Eastern Europe was linked to hatred of the bourgeoisie which for some reason is considered by many bad people as progressive.
Of course the Nazis were right-wing. Although right-wing originally meant averse to change, which the Nazis certainly were not. Very certainly they were not any sort of conservatives, as surely as they were not liberals.
However, and more importantly, the Nazis were progressives not reactionaries. They were the first people to want a European Economic Community, they were environmentalists, anti-smoking fanatics, very New Age, etc, etc. Eugenics was considered modern and progressive before the war, as abortion is now.
Anti-Semitism is reactionary, you say, and it certainly often can be, but the Nazi reasons for persecuting Jews were to do with newfangled bogus pseudo-science and not the old reasons for disliking Jews. Anti-Semitism in Central and Eastern Europe was linked to hatred of the bourgeoisie which for some reason is considered by many bad people as progressive.
“Anti-Semitism in Central and Eastern Europe was linked to hatred of the bourgeoisie which for some reason is considered by many bad people as progressive.“
ReplyDeleteA shamefully ignorant statement. Communism was a completely Jewish led movement and was supported by Jews the world over as an “emancipation”. The Bolsheviks murdered all of Russia’s natural born ruling class and replaced them with Jews. They were the only beneficiaries of Communism. You portray the victmiser as victim which is spitting on the graves if the millions of dead Christians.
Communism was not a completely or mostly Jewish led movement, though a disproportionate number of Jews became Communists after 1917 (not before). Nor did the Nazi view of Jews spring from their blaming Jews for Communism. Modern pseudo-scientific theories about conflict between Semites and Aryans and other anti-Jewish ideas can be traced to H.S. Chamberlain and other writers and politicians well before Bolshevism. According to Ian Kershaw, who has read all the extant speeches made by Hitler in 1918, in all of them he attacks the Jews but in none of them does he mention Bolshevism.
DeleteFrom 1918 many Jews were attracted to Communism. Sir Alfred Sherman who started off as a Communist before becoming very conservative said international communism offered young Jews in the 1930s a homeland. It is true that the Bolshevik revolution in Hungary in 1919 was mostly led by Jews. Russian white emigres often blamed Jews for Bolshevism and this had an influence on how people in the West thought. It is not true that Russian Bolshevism was controlled or led by Jews or was something Jews did to Christians. Solzhenitsyn makes this clear in his book on Russian Jewry, 'Two Hundred Years Together'.
Delete“Communism was not a completely or mostly Jewish led movement, though a disproportionate number of Jews became Communists after 1917 (not before).”
DeleteThis is a brazenly false statement. Where are you getting your facts from?
Robert Wilton, Russian correspondent for the Times of London made an exhaustive list of all the Bolshevik leadership. In "The Last Days of the Romonovs", 1920, he gave a run down of all their ethnic backgrounds.They formed an absolute (and overwhelming majority) at all levels and not just a disproportionate number.
“I have done all in my power to act as an impartial chronicler. In order not to leave myself open to any accusation of prejudice, I am giving the list of the members of the [Bolshevik Party‘s] Central Committee, of the Extraordinary Commission (Cheka or secret police), and of the Council of Commissars functioning at the time of the assassination of the Imperial family.
The 62 members of the [Central] Committee were composed of five Russians, one Ukrainian, six Letts [Latvians], two Germans, one Czech, two Armenians, three Georgians, one Karaim [Karaite] (a Jewish sect), and 41 Jews.
The Extraordinary Commission (Cheka or Vechelrrz) of Moscow was composed of 36 members, including one German, one Pole, one Armenian, two Russians, eight Latvians, and 23 Jews.
The Council of the People's Commissariat (the Soviet government) numbered two Armenians, three Russians, and 17 Jews.
According to data furnished by the Soviet press, out of 556 important functionaries of the Bolshevik state, including the above-mentioned, in 1918-1919 there were: 17 Russians, two Ukrainians, eleven Armenians, 35 Letts (Latvians), 15 Germans, one Hungarian, ten Georgians, three Poles, three Finns, one Czech, one Katraim, and 457 Jews.
If the reader is astonished to find the Jewish hand everywhere in the affair of the assassination of the Russian Imperial family, he must bear in mind the formidable numerical preponderance of Jews in the Soviet administration.
From pages 136-138 of the same edition
Effective governmental power is in the Central Committee of the Bolshevik party. In 1918 this body had twelve members, of whom nine were of Jewish origin, and three were of Russian ancestry. The nine Jews were: Bronstein (Trotsky), Apfelbaum (Zinoviev). Lurie (Larine), Uritsky, Volodarski, Rosenfeld (Kamenev), Smidovich, Sverdlov (Yanitel), and Nakhamkes (Steklov). The three Russians were: Ulyanov (Lenin), Krylenko, and Lunacharsky.
The other Russian Socialist parties sre similar in composition. Their Central Committees are made up as follows:
* Mensheviks (Social Democrats): Eleven members, all of whom are Jewish.
* Communists of the People: Six members. of whom five are Jews and one is a Russian.
* Social Revolutionaries (Right Wing]: Fifteen members of whom 13 are Jews and two are Russians (Kerenski, who may be of Jewish origin, and Tchaikovski).
* Social Revolutionaries (Left Wing): Twelve members, of whom ten are Jews and two are Russians.
* Committee of the Anarchists of Moscow: Five members, of whom four are Jews and one is a Russian.
* Polish Communist Party: Twelve members, all of whom are Jews, including Sobelson (Radek), Krokhenal (Zagonski), and Schwartz (Goltz).
These parties, in appearance opposed to the Bolsheviks, play the Bolsheviks‘ game on the sly. more or less, by preventing the Russians from pulling themselves together. Out of 61 individuals at the head of these parties, there are six Russians and 55 Jews. No matter what may he the name adopted, a revolutionary government will be Jewish.”
"It is not true that Russian Bolshevism was controlled or led by Jews or was something Jews did to Christians. Solzhenitsyn makes this clear in his book on Russian Jewry, 'Two Hundred Years Together'."
DeleteI have my doubts as to how much of "Two Hundred Years together" have you actually read. This is Chapter 16, in particular a quote that gives lie to your assertion that anti-semitism was linked to anti-bourgeois sentiment:
"In the 20’s students already enrolled in institutions of higher learning were expelled based on social origins policy. Children of the nobility, the clergy, government bureaucrats, military officers, merchants, even children of petty shop keepers were expelled. Applicants from these classes and children of the intelligentsia were denied entry to institutions of higher learning in the years that followed. As a “nationality repressed by the Tsar’s regime,” Jews did not receive this treatment. Despite “bourgeois origin,” the Jewish youth was freely accepted in institutions of higher learning. Jews were forgiven for not being proletarian.
According to the Jewish Encyclopedia, “with the absence of limitations based upon nationality for entry to institutions of higher learning, Jews came to make up 15.4% of all university students in the USSR, almost twice their proportion of the urban population at large” (15). Further, Jews “owing to a high level of motivation” quickly bypassed the unprepared “proletarian” factory workers who had been pushed forward in the education system, and proceeded unhindered into graduate school. In the 20’s and 30’s and for a long time after, Jews were a disproportionately large part of the intelligentsia."
https://200yearstogether.wordpress.com/2010/10/15/chapter-18-during-1920s/
The Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was just as Jewish as the one in Hungary. They dominated the Gulag administration and the top ranks of the NKVD also. This is something which is not up for debate. It's just a fact.
It is certainly not a fact that the Bolshevik revolution in Russia was as Jewish as the Hungarian version in 1919, though according to Timothy Snyder in 1930 Jews did dominate the highest ranks of the NKVD. Later in that decade the proportion was very much reduced as Jews were purged. Jews made up not more than 20% of the first Bolshevik party congress. What proportion of the population they were at that time I have seen variously cited as 5% or 1.5%. Jews were never a majority in the Politburo. Before the October revolution few Jews were Bolsheviks. Religion, Zionism, the Bund and many other parties were more popular with Jews than Lenin's party .
DeleteI think a more "scientific" approach is to look at the positions, weighted by the power they held. A lowly Politburo bureaucrat who came up with directives on how many shoes to manufacture did not yield as much power as the head of the secret police. One of the big reasons behind anti-semitism in Eastern Europe at the time was the overwhelming fear of the Soviet Union and the perception of who ran it (whether factual or not). An analogy today would be ISIS and the reactions it sparked in Europe during its expansion.
Delete"One of the big reasons behind anti-semitism in Eastern Europe at the time was the overwhelming fear of the Soviet Union and the perception of who ran it." That would have been an important factor though Hitler for one was a passionate antisemite before Lenin took power and so were many others. Do you have any links on this?
DeleteYour point about the NKVD is a good one but nevertheless Jews did not come anywhere near dominating the Bolshevik party or government as a whole.
DeleteCodswallop.
DeleteHuey Long is the puzzle for me. Was he right-wing or left-wing? His policies both as governor and as a prospective POTUS candidate were left-wing. His policies even helped blacks,though he was a segregationist like every other Southern pol of the time. I guess he was considered right-wing because he was a threat to FDR and his Communist-riddled administration.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at the NAZI party agenda, many of its economic points were quite leftist (condemnation of private ownership of big business, condemnation of interest as a mechanism, fetish for "workers", etc). Mussolini had started out as a mainstream socialist. Fascism was basically socialism with a national twist, but I would not place it on the "right" if we use the imperfect left-right spectrum. The far "right" would be someone supporting traditions, especially things like the Church or the monarchy. Franco in Spain would be more representative of the political "right".
ReplyDeleteThe Nazis were not traditionalists unlike Franco but he too was a corporatist - a Heathite not a Thatcherite.
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